Comments on: Microsoft: Still evil after all these years, yea… http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/ Thoughts on Dynamic Languages, Web Apps, and more Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:42:52 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: ashebanow http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-315 ashebanow Mon, 14 May 2007 23:04:36 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-315 Mike: my mistake, sorry about that. Mike: my mistake, sorry about that.

]]> By: Mike Gunderloy http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-314 Mike Gunderloy Mon, 14 May 2007 22:09:39 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-314 One minor factual correction: I've done contract work for Microsoft in the past, and I've worked almost exclusively with Microsoft technologies since roughly the DOS 2.0 era, but I've never been a Microsoft employee. One minor factual correction: I’ve done contract work for Microsoft in the past, and I’ve worked almost exclusively with Microsoft technologies since roughly the DOS 2.0 era, but I’ve never been a Microsoft employee.

]]> By: ashebanow http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-312 ashebanow Mon, 14 May 2007 21:23:34 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-312 Dear Anonymous Coward, I'm not going to get into a debate with you over which WebKit bug fixes are worthy or not worthy, or about how many fixes have actually been contributed by Adobe engineers (my two examples took me all of 30 seconds to find). It sounds to me like you have an ax to grind here that has little to do with the actual topic of my post: Microsoft's attack on the open source movement. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'd prefer to keep discussion here on topic, so if you really want to sound off more about how much Adobe is/is not contributing to WebKit on a daily basis, well, I'd encourage you to get your own blog and do exactly that. Dear Anonymous Coward,

I’m not going to get into a debate with you over which WebKit bug fixes are worthy or not worthy, or about how many fixes have actually been contributed by Adobe engineers (my two examples took me all of 30 seconds to find). It sounds to me like you have an ax to grind here that has little to do with the actual topic of my post: Microsoft’s attack on the open source movement. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I’d prefer to keep discussion here on topic, so if you really want to sound off more about how much Adobe is/is not contributing to WebKit on a daily basis, well, I’d encourage you to get your own blog and do exactly that.

]]> By: Anonymous Coward http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-311 Anonymous Coward Mon, 14 May 2007 20:57:43 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-311 Neither of those WebKit bugs you linked to has *anything* to do with Windows. One of the issues addresses a crash in Safari, and the other provides an interface around a concept that has yet to be defined. The point I am making here is rather than showering Adobe with praise for their excellent open source work in relation to WebKit it would be worth understanding exactly what Adobe has contributed to date: two cross-platform bug fixes, and a bunch of build system files that are useless to anyone outside of Adobe. Perhaps in the future they will be more involved in the WebKit open source community but, please, save the congratulations until their contributions are more than fantasy. Neither of those WebKit bugs you linked to has *anything* to do with Windows. One of the issues addresses a crash in Safari, and the other provides an interface around a concept that has yet to be defined.

The point I am making here is rather than showering Adobe with praise for their excellent open source work in relation to WebKit it would be worth understanding exactly what Adobe has contributed to date: two cross-platform bug fixes, and a bunch of build system files that are useless to anyone outside of Adobe. Perhaps in the future they will be more involved in the WebKit open source community but, please, save the congratulations until their contributions are more than fantasy.

]]> By: ashebanow http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-310 ashebanow Mon, 14 May 2007 20:33:45 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-310 On the thin thing: probably not the best choice of words. I wasn't trying to imply anything about the size in LOC, just that its functionality is only a small layer on top of the larger CLR which remains proprietary. By contrast, the Tamarin code IS more or less the entire chunk of runtime VM that sits in Flash Player. Is it a bad thing ours is so much tighter than theirs? :-) On the thin thing: probably not the best choice of words. I wasn’t trying to imply anything about the size in LOC, just that its functionality is only a small layer on top of the larger CLR which remains proprietary. By contrast, the Tamarin code IS more or less the entire chunk of runtime VM that sits in Flash Player. Is it a bad thing ours is so much tighter than theirs? :-)

]]> By: ashebanow http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-309 ashebanow Mon, 14 May 2007 20:29:43 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-309 It seems clear from the google searching i've done that many people think there may be issues with GPL compatibility. On the other hand, I couldn't find <b>anything</b> on the internet from any open source organization who said "we've reviewed the terms with our lawyers and believe they are in fact GPL compatible". But if your lawyers say you are OK then I certainly am not going to try and argue with them - its ultimately a judgment call on risk that every organization needs to make for themselves. Also, Matusow's comment may not be an official Microsoft legal interpretation, but given his job it s would be surprised if he didn't at least get chance to review the terms before they were announced. Thus it seems likely his opinion meshes pretty well with that of the people who framed the license terms in the first place, and thus goes to Microsoft's intentions. It seems clear from the google searching i’ve done that many people think there may be issues with GPL compatibility. On the other hand, I couldn’t find anything on the internet from any open source organization who said “we’ve reviewed the terms with our lawyers and believe they are in fact GPL compatible”. But if your lawyers say you are OK then I certainly am not going to try and argue with them – its ultimately a judgment call on risk that every organization needs to make for themselves.

Also, Matusow’s comment may not be an official Microsoft legal interpretation, but given his job it s would be surprised if he didn’t at least get chance to review the terms before they were announced. Thus it seems likely his opinion meshes pretty well with that of the people who framed the license terms in the first place, and thus goes to Microsoft’s intentions.

]]> By: Miguel de Icaza http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-308 Miguel de Icaza Mon, 14 May 2007 20:18:31 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-308 So the first link from LWN effectively says that it abides by the four freedoms that the FSF expects from any license, and even that it follows the GPL model (The quotes from George Greve). And Matusow basically was speculating. So this is hardly proves your point, and as I said, Debian and our lawyers consider the MsPL an open source license that fits the OSI definition of free software. Miguel. So the first link from LWN effectively says that it abides by the four freedoms that the FSF expects from any license, and even that it follows the GPL model (The quotes from George Greve).

And Matusow basically was speculating.

So this is hardly proves your point, and as I said, Debian and our lawyers consider the MsPL an open source license that fits the OSI definition of free software.

Miguel.

]]> By: Miguel de Icaza http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-307 Miguel de Icaza Mon, 14 May 2007 20:14:31 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-307 Also, I wanted to comment on a few things: * Tamarin source code size (minus PCRE): 98,000 lines of C++ and header files. * DLR (as shipped in IronPython 2-Alpha): 94,000 lines of C# code. Tamarin is great, and the DLR is still in the early betas, but am not sure why you felt compelled to call their DLR contribution "thin". Miguel. Also, I wanted to comment on a few things:

* Tamarin source code size (minus PCRE): 98,000 lines of C++ and header files.

* DLR (as shipped in IronPython 2-Alpha): 94,000 lines of C# code.

Tamarin is great, and the DLR is still in the early betas, but am not sure why you felt compelled to call their DLR contribution “thin”.

Miguel.

]]> By: ashebanow http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-306 ashebanow Mon, 14 May 2007 19:59:48 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-306 Miguel, Always a pleasure to here from you. I haven't done any analysis of the legal terms myself. IANAL. However, I did go by the links I referred to in the article, and others that came up in the search on google. Here are a few more: http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2005/10/19/shared_source_licences/ http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2005/10/microsoft_annou.html http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonmatusow/archive/2005/10/19/482562.aspx http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/003188.shtml http://lwn.net/Articles/156310/ The first has a quote from Jason Matusow of Microsoft: "It should be compatible with most open source licences, but I think it would still conflict with the GPL." Miguel,

Always a pleasure to here from you. I haven’t done any analysis of the legal terms myself. IANAL. However, I did go by the links I referred to in the article, and others that came up in the search on google. Here are a few more:

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2005/10/19/shared_source_licences/
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/gerv/archives/2005/10/microsoft_annou.html
http://blogs.msdn.com/jasonmatusow/archive/2005/10/19/482562.aspx
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/003188.shtml
http://lwn.net/Articles/156310/

The first has a quote from Jason Matusow of Microsoft: “It should be compatible with most open source licences, but I think it would still conflict with the GPL.”

]]> By: ashebanow http://shebanator.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/comment-page-1/#comment-305 ashebanow Mon, 14 May 2007 19:25:02 +0000 http://shebanation.com/2007/05/14/microsoft-still-evil-after-all-these-years-yea/#comment-305 Umm, not quite zero. Here are two I found quickly: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13212 http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6286 There still is a lot more coming. The bottom line is that the commitment to work together is there, even if the logistics haven't been worked out, and Apollo engineers are commiters on WebKit. Nice troll attempt, though. Umm, not quite zero. Here are two I found quickly:

http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13212
http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6286

There still is a lot more coming. The bottom line is that the commitment to work together is there, even if the logistics haven’t been worked out, and Apollo engineers are commiters on WebKit.

Nice troll attempt, though.

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